Transcript

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 HOST QAI:

So, hello everybody, welcome to our podcast, Sip and Guess. I am very excited to announce that today we have two special guests that are going to join our podcast today. Let's welcome Mr. Jeremy from IACT College. He is our lecturer, very handsome, very kind and willing to help any students. Thank you, Mr. Jeremy. And Miss Sha from BAC Counsellor. I’m Nur Atiqah binti Abdul Rahman and I'm from UKT, I don't know where I'm from. Our podcast topic is going to discuss how can AI replace emotional support and therapy, which our guests thought about based on their positions, right? Because with AI, there's no judgment, no embarrassment, and it's always there So let's start with the questions. A lot of people feel more comfortable typing than talking nowadays. From your observation as a lecturer, Mr. Jeremy, how has digital communication changed the way people express emotions compared to previous generations? 

 MR JEREMY IACT LECTURTER:

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Okay, so well, with previous generations, we would see a lot more expressions of emotions being more uptight, right?  I think people are definitely more open to emotional expressions now, especially with younger generations, especially since that expression of emotions has shifted to an online platform. So it becomes easier now to share and express emotions when there is that distance of an online connection. But I also think that with this abundance of emotional expression, there is also the possibility for or the potential for this expression to be more surface level and more shallow. So people are expressing themselves more, yes, but I also feel that there is less importance given towards actually processing those expressions as well. 

HOST QAI:

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I agree, I agree. So Miss Sha, do you actually agree with what Mr. Jeremy has said?

 BAC COUNSELLOR MISS SHA:

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In a way, because now it's like more digital, right? So we don't really, it can be like two sides, I mean, two spectrums, you know, like either you're going to use it to connect, you know, or you're going to be like more isolated, more withdrawn from this.

 HOST QAI:

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All right, all right.  So this is a question specifically for Miss Sha. So Mr. Jeremy, hold your horses, yeah?  From your experience, why do some individuals find it difficult to open up to face to face, but feel more comfortable expressing themselves digitally?

 BAC COUNSELLOR MISS SHA:

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I think it takes a lot of courage. It takes a lot of bravery, especially when you have an issue, right? You need somebody to reach out, because there's a lot of factors, meaning when you feel ashamed you know, like all sorts of vulnerability inside of you. Sometimes people like us, like, you know, like when you see something in the newspaper, right, like somebody perhaps choose to die by suicide, and you're saying like, why didn't this person reach out? You know, why didn't this person talk to their families and their friends? It’s very, very difficult in terms of, you know, when you want to, that courage itself,  you know, a lot of factors, but that's one factor Another would be when compared digitally, of course, you have more control, you know, like either you want to delete something, or you know, you may have some time to process, you have more control.

 HOST QAI:  

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Okay, so Mr. Jeremy, do you agree with what Ms. Sha has said? 

MR JEREMY IACT LECTURTER:  

Yes, definitely. I think there is more potential for students, especially, right, younger generations to express themselves more freely through an online platform, because there is, like Ms. Sha said,  lack of anxiety-inducing conversations face to face. Yeah, so I do agree with that as well.

 
(HOST) QAI:

Okay, all right. For both of you, do you think people are avoiding emotions, or they're just avoiding judgment from people? 

(IACT LECTURER) MR JEREMY:

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I think when it comes to the use of AI, right, it's not really a matter of avoiding emotions, right, or avoiding judgment, because it's, I mean, I have to admit, when there is AI  being used as that conversation partner, right, there is no human interaction, right? There is no facial expressions, face-to-face conversations, there's no particular tone that's being taken, and ultimately, there's no consequences to that conversation, right? But this is a one-sided thing that's more in favor of AI, so we have to be very careful with that as well, because while there's no consequences, that also implies that there is no accountability, right?  So it is just the one person who is held accountable for their conversation with AI platforms, right?  So there's no potential, or rather, no emotion, no care behind that response, because it is clinical, it is scientific.

(HOST) QAI:

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Maybe people are not avoiding emotions, like both Mr. Jeremy and Ms. Sha have said. They're avoiding judgment from people, but that's also not the case for some people. So, let's talk about AI versus human connection. AI can respond instant, and they know how to say all the right things, but does that mean it understands us?  So Mr. Jeremy, from your point of view, from a theoretical perspective, can emotional understanding truly be replicated by AI, or is it inherently human?

(IACT LECTURER) MR JEREMY:

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I would uh I am more of the opinion that it is inherently human, right, because it's important to realize that with AI platforms, it is not a matter of the AI expressing genuine human interactions or genuine human connections. AI platforms are trained to replicate human interactions. So yes, it can mimic the ideal sort of interaction between a student and a therapist, for example, right? But this is still not coming from a place of understanding. It's coming from a place of whatever the AI model has been trained on. 

(HOST) QAI:

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I see. So, there's a difference between responding and how it feels, okay? So MS SHA, can you share a situation where human empathy made a real difference in helping someone?

(COUNSELOR) MS SHA:

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This is like important, you know, because you can't empathize someone if you don’t bring yourself to that level, you know? Like sometimes people think it's challenging to empathize someone when you do not have that experience, you know, like you're not able to relate.  So, the interesting thing about empathy is when you don't have that kind of experience, right, you say, hey, I do not have that kind of experience, but I'm here, you know, I'm here for you, you know? That is mainly the context of empathy, right? So if you want to compare with AI, AI doesn't have that, you know? So human connection, empathy, so it helps in bringing someone to feel heard, right? And so that is the basic of somebody looking for perspective or looking for just somebody to listen to them. 

(HOST) QAI:  

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This is the final question. What advice would you give to young people who rely heavily on AI for emotional support? 

(COUNSELOR) MS SHA: 

So firstly, I believe that you need to redefine back, right? Redefine back emotional support itself, because number one emotional support will always go to human connection, right?  Because there lies the trust, authenticity, and also accountability.

(IACT LECTURER) MR JEREMY:

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Yeah, I think to summarize it, I would put it down to two main qualities that people should bear in mind in regards to the use of AI. And that's critical thinking and a good sense of awareness as well, right? Because AI is useful as a reflection tool, right? A tool for interpretation, but it is not a substitute for real conversations and it's not a substitute for real professional help as well. So, I think, especially when it comes to younger generations, knowing that difference is one of the most crucial things in regards to dealing with AI. Because, I mean, young people should still, or rather everyone, but young people especially, students and people of that age group should be prioritizing real support systems, right? Family, friends, even professional help as well, as opposed to using or resorting to the use of digital platforms, digital substitutes for this help. So, I think to summarize it, I would say, use AI carefully. I'm of the mindset that it should not be used as a tool for emotional support. 

(COUNSELOR) MS SHA:

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Honestly, I don't mind people using AI. I mean, counsellors using AI. But then, if I'm a client, and I'm not comfortable with somebody using AI, then I can tell them. I think you're using AI. I'm not comfortable you using AI. Because I really don't think it's a sin to use AI. So, if you're not okay with it, share with, for example, your therapist alright.  And I believe they will respect that.  

(IACT LECTURER) MR JEREMY:

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I think there is an ethical question at play here, especially in terms of the use of AI by a professional, for that purpose of professional help as well. So I think there are definitely limitations to it.  But at the same time, for example, a professional can use AI for compartmentalizing information, for example. But in terms of delivering actual professional advice, I don't think the use of AI is appropriate in this context. I think one potential workaround to this would be the professionals who use AI platforms in their work or rather should be required to declare as such prior to any engagement with the client. For example, if this therapist were to use AI in their everyday work, as long as the client is aware of it and understanding of it and accepting of that fact, then I don't think it would be a major issue. Because with the use of AI in the professional realm, we see it happening quite often, not just with the mental health industry as well.There is this long running joke that says graduates are using AI to write their resumes, HR is using AI to filter through it, and no one's getting hired. And I think that same sentiment can apply to the mental health industry as well. When there is that use of AI, as we've discussed, if AI is only surface level and giving you what you want to hear, then is it truly considered to be professional help? That is the question here. And I think there are a lot of ethical concerns, especially when AI is being used for the idea of giving advice based off of AI platforms.I don't think it's the right way to do it. But like Ms Shah said as well, as long as there are limitations in place in regards to the use of AI, like the professional is not using AI to actually deliver the advice, but they're using it to just organise their own information, then I think it's somewhat okay to go with that route.

(COUNSELOR) MS SHA:

 I really resonate with MR JEREMY's answer, because I think the key would be transparency. Both sides are on the same page. I think that's what's important.

(HOST) QAI

 This is another question that we have. AI is infinitely better than any therapist I've ever had. So this user, never sure so what, said, maybe this is crazy of me to say, but I honestly think the best therapist I've ever encountered is CHATGPT.  Everyone knows what CHATGPT is, right?  Mind you, I've been through eight different human therapists at this point, invested weeks and weeks of time, and none of them get me the way CHATGPT does. AI actually engages with my philosophical questions about the meaninglessness of life instead of dismissing them.  Every time I bring up the issue about how life is objectively stupid and pointless, my human therapist will just dodge the question and start asking me about meaningless drivel,  like, what was your childhood like? It was fine. Does anyone else experience this, or is there something wrong with me?

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 (COUNSELOR) MS SHA:

 

Honestly, I think it really depends, you know, because therapy or counselling is a process, you know? So I'm very sorry for your experience.  I mean, what is his name? Hottick, is it? Never sure so what, he's anonymous.Never, okay, anonymous. I'm very sorry for your experience, because I get it, it's not a cool experience when you have to see eight people, and then compared to AI, AI seems like more be patient with you. I feel very sorry because you have to go through that. Nobody would like to go through that, right? So, but at the same time, the process itself is very, it's something that, you know, some people may find it helpful, you know, do not go through something like that,but some people, yeah, become like anonymous, they go through something like that.Clearly, there's nothing wrong with you, all right?Because anyone who goes through eight kind of process,you know, eight kind of seeing eight people,  and then suddenly, CHATGPT gets you, all right?  Of course, you would feel like, it's normal.  It's normal to feel that way, but at the same time, understanding the process itself, you know, different individual will have a different take on going through the therapy itself. 

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(IACT LECTURER) MR JEREMY: 

What MS SHA has said has actually kind of also proved the point  that we've been making all this while about AI lacking that sense of human empathy, right? Just by the idea of MS SHA apologizing on behalf of this, you know, anonymous user on Reddit, right?  Shows that, you know, human connections, human empathy is a quality that AI still cannot replicate to this day, right? So, yes, AI can, you know, agree with this person, his individual who has raised some valid concerns about, you know, the use of CHATGPT and things like that, but it also comes down to that idea of awareness that I mentioned earlier, right? It's important for people to understand that AI is limitedin the sense that it is built to agree with you. So, while you may feel that your conversations with AI come across as AI understanding you, it's because it's been trained to do so, right? I think a lot of people struggle with understanding that completely as well, because AI does lack that real sense of understanding, right?  It lacks the context unless you provide that context yourself, which is also something that was mentioned in that Reddit post as well,  where they say that they have expressed themselves and then the therapist turns to these questions on their childhood and things like that. But it's important to understand that these things are what provides context and that context would also then be beneficial for the professional providing a real solution to these problems, right? So, it's not just a matter of like, AI gets me, right? AI gets you because you have put in a prompt in such a way to make it respond in such a way that makes it feel that it understands you. But there is still no accountability or responsibility on the platform's end of things,because we have heard of people taking drastic decisions based on the advice given by AI as well, right?  And this is all based off the context that only the user themselves can provide. So, this is something that is a limitation when it comes to mental health issues and dealing with the emotions that come with it as well. Yeah, so AI does have that lack of a cultural context, a personal contextthat can only be achieved through this human connection as well. 

(HOST) QAI: 

So, thank you everyone for listening and also shout out to our guests, Mr. Jeremy and Ms. Sha for joining our podcast. I really appreciate you guys for joining us. Again, thank you so much for taking your time to see us and helping us out with this podcast so for the next episode, let's feature some more guests and see you guys next time.